About Three Day Rule

Three Day Rule is a leading personalized matchmaking company headquartered in Los Angeles. We have matchmakers in Los Angeles, San Francisco Bay Area, New York City, Chicago, Boston, and Washington, D.C. We are the exclusive provider of white glove, personalized matchmaking services to Match and are backed by IAC.

Our team of world-class matchmakers and dating experts act as personal dating concierges by hand-selecting and vetting every potential match in person before making any formal introductions to our clients. Our matchmakers are known for their compassion, trustworthiness, and genuine desire to help their clients find meaningful, committed relationships. Most of our matchmakers have had successful corporate careers before transitioning to matchmaking and come from Fortune 500 companies like Google, Microsoft, and NBCUniversal. They were educated at schools like Harvard Business School, UCLA, Brown, and NYU.

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Meet the Matchmakers

Our world-class matchmakers provide clients with personalized attention, hand-selected matches, and valuable date coaching. TDR's matchmakers combine proven matchmaking techniques with cutting-edge, facial recognition technology to ensure we introduce you to your ideal match.

We have matchmakers in Los Angeles, San Francisco, New York, Chicago, Boston, and Washington, D.C.

Erika Gershowitz

Erika graduated with a degree in Public Relations from Penn State University, and immediately moved to NYC to pursue a career in publishing and entertainment. As a publicist for US Weekly, Rolling Stone, and Men’s Journal magazines, Erika constantly connected outlets with information and content — but as a hobby, she constantly connected friends with friends. As a matchmaker for Three Day Rule, Erika is thrilled to have successfully turned a passion into a career. She is excited to leverage her professional background and knowledge along with her enthusiastic and warm nature to bring quality people together.

Louisa Liu

Louisa is a Cali girl at heart. After graduating from UC Berkeley with a degree in Psychology, she worked in retail management for various luxury retail companies. Her diverse international background from having lived overseas and trilingual ability to speak Chinese Mandarin, Cantonese, and English have armed her with a global knowledge of dating and human connection across cultural boundaries. A social butterfly, Louisa is constantly forging new connections and has built a strong network of exceptional people worldwide. A past winner of Miss Asian America and Miss San Francisco Chinatown, Louisa enjoys volunteering in the Bay Area and mentoring young women to grow up pursuing and believing in the beauty of their dreams.

McKenzie Faucher

After graduating from the University of California, Santa Barbara McKenzie packed up and moved to Boston where she pursued a competitive job in Sales and Trading. As her career escalated, McKenzie realized that her true passion was making and enhancing personal connections with all the different types of people in her professional network. Outside of work, she also had a propensity for helping her friends navigate the challenges of the dating world and make successful romantic connections. As a matchmaker for Three Day Rule in Boston, McKenzie is ecstatic that she found a unique way to turn her passions into a gratifying career. Recently married, McKenzie is thrilled to use her knowledge, enthusiasm, and sharp intuition to help her clients find their one-and-only.

Adelle Gomelsky

As the first American born in her Russian family, Adelle has always had an interest in meeting new people. After being the president of her student body, she had a successful career in Entertainment PR and Brand Marketing with companies including NBC, FOX, and DIRECTV. Adelle realized what truly gave her happiness was her natural ability to make people feel at ease and for helping others connect. However, it wasn’t until she found the love of her life through TDR that she knew she had to help others find the happiness that she had found. Adelle is one of Three Day Rule’s wonderful success stories, and she is dedicated to helping others find their ideal match.

Kate Edwards

Among her friends, Kate has always been known as the "dating expert." While working at advertising agencies, Publicis and JWT, her co-workers flocked to her for love advice. She also found herself playing matchmaker for her colleagues at Facebook while she was working there as a marketer. All of these experiences helped Kate realize that matchmaking is her true calling. With a B.A. from Brown University and an MBA from UCLA Anderson, Kate's professional expertise in entrepreneurship and technology make her the ideal fit for Three Day Rule. Kate enjoys taking dance classes, trivia nights, and exploring the world.

Mary Stuart Deibel

As the daughter of a flight attendant, Mary Stuart grew up traveling the world, allowing her to easily connect with people from diverse backgrounds and cultures. Given her desire to study personal relationships and dynamics, she received her BA in Interpersonal Organizational Communication from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and an A.A.S. in Culinary Arts. She leveraged both degrees to launch a career in event planning before moving to Los Angeles to work in television production. Throughout her career, she has realized that her greatest strength lies in matching and connecting people together from every corner of her life. Mary Stuart's friendly and trustworthy nature instantly puts her matchmaking clients at ease, and allows her to be successful in her on-going quest to help her clients find true love.

Beth Heller

After graduating from the University of Massachusetts, Amherst with a B.A. in Communication, Beth built a successful career as a film and entertainment publicist. Her background in public relations, combined with her experiences living abroad in Australia, have taught her how to easily establish new connections with others. Beth is dedicated to helping singles in Boston find meaningful, fulfilling relationships.

Anna Leifeste

Anna has the ideal mix of natural intuitive skills, combined with the disciplined training of a therapist. Having graduated with a Masters in Psychology from Northwestern University, she has a profound understanding of people and relationships. She is warm, empathic, knows how to ask the important questions and to truly listen to her clients to get to the bottom of what they are looking for and what they need in a partner. Anna combines all of her skills and experience as a therapist to delve into the minds and hearts of her clients to propel them to find true love.

Allie Alvarez

Allie's own personal success story as a matchmaking client with Three Day Rule inspired her to quit her successful, lucrative career as a pharmaceutical sales executive to join the TDR team as a matchmaker. While working with Talia as her personal matchmaker, Allie was introduced to her now-husband, Rick, who she happily married in November 2012. After Allie's life-changing experience as a Three Day Rule client, she realized that helping others find love was her new calling. Today, Allie works an incredibly fulfilling job as a matchmaker and is Three Day Rule's Director of Premium Services. A graduate of Harvard Business School, Allie combines her rigorous work ethic with her warm personality to find her clients their ideal match.

Heather Noman

Heather has always been interested in human interaction. After receiving her Bachelor of Fine Arts in Acting from Minnesota State University, Heather began her career by building one of the most successful wedding venues in Minneapolis. Her experience working closely with over 500 successful couples gave her incredible insight and a talent for spotting chemistry between two people. Heather thrives on bringing together friends, colleagues, family and even distinctly different cultures. After finding her own match, Heather made the move to Chicago where her passion for the city takes her to all the amazing neighborhoods and events around town. She loves traveling the world, embracing different customs and new experiences. To her, creating a genuine bond and truly understanding someone is the most meaningful experience. Heather’s fierce passion for people and making connections are what make her an excellent matchmaker.

Lindsay Fisher

A Central Oregon native, Lindsay earned her degree from the University of Oregon and moved to Los Angeles upon graduation. Having majored in Political Science, Lindsay began her career in the legal industry and quickly established herself at prominent law firms in the area. She's spent most of her time in LA networking with and recruiting law students, helping her firms to find the most qualified candidates to join their legal team. Lindsay found the transition to Matchmaker at Three Day Rule incredibly seamless, as she's always enjoyed learning about what motivates people, not only professionally, but romantically and personally above all! Lindsay's calm and easygoing nature enables her to quickly put friends, colleagues, and clients at ease.

Christine Gomolka

Christine has always had a penchant for understanding people. As a Woman Studies major at Pace University in New York City, Christine developed an interest in learning about the women's movement and it's implications on dating and relationships. Upon graduation, Christine embarked on a career in marketing/advertising. Throughout her life, Christine has matched many of her friends and colleagues, as she has always been driven by her desire to help people achieve success in relationships. Christine is grateful to have the opportunity to turn her passion for connecting people into a career.

Jaime Bernstein

Jaime met the love of her life in DC and knows that it is a great city for others to meet their soul mates! She moved to DC in 2009 after completing her MA in Communication from the University of Akron. Her education, vivacious personality, and drive led to a successful career in the nonprofit and international relations sectors. Her work experiences provided her with the unique opportunity to work with professionals from all over the world. These experiences have honed her ability to relate to individuals with diverse backgrounds. Her intuitive nature and penchant for helping others find love have guided her to her true calling: becoming a matchmaker. Jaime has always had a knack for setting up friends, family and co-workers, and is thrilled to have turned this passion into a full-time career.

Callie Harris

From a very young age, Callie has been interested in meeting new people and connecting with different ones around her. In college, while all of her friends chose to study abroad in Europe, Callie made the move to Beijing, China to intern for a start-up company and study Mandarin. After graduating from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, she accepted an offer to work at a technology start-up to work as a PR professional. Whether she is networking with leaders on Capitol Hill, playing kickball on the National Mall, or connecting with other tech professionals in DC, Callie is comfortable in any setting and is always finding opportunities to meet new people. Her warm personality, natural ability to identify what makes two people connect, and relentless work ethic make her DC's ideal matchmaker.

Carla Swiryn

One of the company’s first Matchmakers, Carla is passionate about making the dating process easier for busy professionals in high-powered Silicon Valley. After graduating from the University of Colorado at Boulder in Advertising, she became an online marketing expert, working for seven years at Google AdWords before running her own online advertising agency. She then shifted from promoting products and services to promoting people, joining Three Day Rule in 2013 and helping with the local launch. An SF Bay Area native, she leverages her wide social and professional network to benefit her clients. She also has the ability to identify the best in everyone, and uses her strong intuition to make the right match. To her, there is no work more fun and satisfying.

Suze Lee

After graduating from Ohio State University with a degree in human ecology, Suze moved to NYC to pursue a career in casting. As a casting professional and producer, she worked with some of the industry's top casting directors, and also worked on casting and producing photo shoots for Gilt.com's e-commerce site. Given her background and strong interest in the psychology of how people meet and date, she has successfully matched many of her friends and colleagues over the years. As a matchmaker for Three Day Rule, Suze has finally been able to turn her passion for matchmaking into a full-time, professional career. She is known for her ability to quickly discern what makes two people click and relentless commitment to finding her clients their ideal matches.

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Testimonials

What our clients are saying about TDR's personal matchmaking

TDR ended up matching me up with someone who couldn't be more perfect for me. He exceeded, and continues to exceed, every expectation I have for an amazing partner. Our first date was the best date that I had ever been on, and 6 months later we were engaged. And, exactly 53 weeks after our first date, we got married. Thank you TDR!
Taryn, 36
Working with Carla, my Three Day Rule matchmaker, was the best! She spent the time to get a sense for who I was and introduced me to great matches. Her feedback and advice after dates were always spot on. Out of all the matchmakers I worked with, she had the most genuine sense of empathy and professionalism.
Brian, 33
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Chris & Roni. Married, August 2014
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Allie & Rick. Married, November 2012
Three Day Rule singlehandedly changed my life for the better! I used to be fixed up constantly, but with all the wrong men. Then, thanks to the spot-on instincts of Talia, TDR's founder and matchmaker extraordinaire, I met the man of my dreams and finally went on my LAST first date! We've been married now for over a year, and not a day passes where I don't think about how grateful I am for Talia and TDR. I've never been happier, and still, to this day, can't believe how lucky I was to meet such an incredible man. I now encourage everyone I know who's single and hoping to meet someone special to look into TDR matchmaking ... you have nothing to lose and everything to gain!
Allie, 39
It was almost a year ago that I came to the girls of Three Day Rule with a broken heart. They listened to me and figured out that I was dating the wrong guy types for my personality.  They set me up with the most wonderful man I've ever met. He's my soul mate and best friend — and everything else I didn't even know I was looking for.  I am so grateful that TDR encouraged me to step outside of my comfort zone and throw caution to the wind.  Thank you TDR for making me so blissfully happy.
Tracy, 28
I thought the difference between having a matchmaker and doing self-directed dating would be like the difference between recruiting employees yourself and using a professional recruiter.  But after experiencing TDR's matchmaking, I realized it's a much bigger difference because TDR eliminates a lot of stress, anxiety & decision points. The user experience for your personal matchmaking is incredibly delightful. I couldn't be more satisfied with the whole process.
Ron, 47
For a long time, I was experiencing dating disaster after dating disaster. I tried everything, but usually my first dates ended with a handshake and my deleting their phone number. When I met Allie, one of the expert matchmakers at Three Day Rule, I could tell right away that TDR was different. I appreciated their unique matchmaking model and special one-on-one attention. And low and behold, my first date through Allie and Three Day Rule ended up being my last first date.  My boyfriend and I just celebrated our 1-year anniversary! I am so grateful to Three Day Rule for bringing such an amazing man into my life.
Kit, 28
Three Day Rule's events are great. Rather than being formal, matchmaking functions, they are more laid back and there is no pressure to walk out with a phone number or talk to anyone you don't want to. You can literally go to an event with the sole purpose of having fun with your friends and there is a good chance you will just end up in a conversation with a like-minded member of the opposite sex. That's what happened to me. I met an interesting girl at a TDR event and we are now engaged!
Dan, 35
I am very grateful that I met Talia.  Her matchmaking service is so wonderful and personable.  I originally had a great deal of hesitation about being fixed up through a matchmaking service because I felt there was a stigma attached; however, it has been one of the best experiences!  My FIRST match was with an amazing guy whom I'm still currently dating. I'm extremely happy, and I owe it all to Three Day Rule!
Jenny, 35
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Ashley & Harrison. Married, November 2013
After a friend's suggestion during a dating slump, I met with the TDR team and told them what I was looking for in a match. After just one meeting, they definitely understood what I wanted and set me up with great guy. We are going on date 5, and I'm really excited for more to come. I am grateful I took my pal's advice so take mine: reach out to the women of 'Three Day Rule' if you are ready to get serious about meeting your match.
Erin, 27
Talia has a natural talent for knowing how two people connect. She takes setting people up very seriously and made the effort to get to know so much about me – my likes, dislikes and preferences (both physical and personality). Her suggested matches for me were right on! Thank you for helping me get closer to being in the relationship of my dreams!
Aaron, 36
I was extremely lucky to meet the ladies of TDR. It can be so hard meeting quality men and these girls have a black book full of them!  I'm not the type to go out to bars in search of someone.  The ladies of TDR have introduced me to quality people and I look forward to meeting even more.
Carrie, 28
I am thrilled I found sincere matchmakers who understand the dating world in LA. Vanessa not only listened to what I hoped to find, she also made an effort to get to know and work with me. It was challenging meeting people in the past and everything changed when I worked with Three Day Rule. They introduced me to fantastic gentlemen. I could not speak more highly of Three Day Rule.
Lindsay, 31
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Jenny & David. Married, April 2012
I'm so grateful for the women of Three Day Rule and their ability to successfully put people together. They took the qualities I was looking for, listened to the type of guy I wanted in my life, and like magic, found a perfect match! They pick your brain and dedicate their time to you. I'm madly in love, completely fulfilled and incredibly happy. I highly recommend letting these ladies get to work to find your soul mate!
Jennifer, 31
When I first heard about Three Day Rule, I was a bit hesitant and feared it would be like every other dating site. However, I decided I had nothing to lose and met with my personal matchmaker, Vanessa. That first meeting changed my entire perception of TDR and put me at ease knowing that Vanessa understood exactly who I am and what I'm looking for. Vanessa has listened to me, provided me with excellent tools and advice, and communicated effectively to help find me my perfect match. I am so pleased with my experience and very happy to be working with Vanessa.
Nina, 27
My favorite part about Three Day Rule is the openness of its members.  Everyone I've met is very honest and forthright about who they are and what they want.  I think most people dislike the "game-playing" that happens in dating, and I've experienced none of that here.  Also, the people I've been matched with are intelligent, motivated and professional; exactly the types of people and qualities I would look for on my own.
Edward, 37
Talia has an exceptional ability to read people and figure out what they want in relationships. Her open, supportive, judgment-free manner puts you at ease immediately. She sent me many excellent matches that I would have never met on my own.  I attended several TDR events and across the board, the guys were smart, attractive, and successful professionals (which is not easy to find in LA!) Having TDR in my back pocket also took away the pressure of "having to meet someone." Knowing that Talia had my back and was working to find me matches actually helped me enjoy myself when I went out and put me in a better mindset to meet men organically. I'd recommend TRD without hesitation to any of my single friends.
Kiera, 32
Back in September, I attended one of your seminars in San Francisco. Your matchmakers shared great dating advice, including girls wanting guys who were 80% nice and 20% edgy/interesting. That Friday, I had a really good first date. Taking your advice about sharing something interesting about myself, I told her that I played the piano. I normally don't think to share that on dates, but you were right - she liked that. For the second date, I invited her to come watch me play at a piano gig. She sat at the bar and got free wine while I played. People kept coming up to her asking who I was and it made me look good. She was impressed and really liked the whole evening. It ended up being an awesome date...and we've been dating ever since! I wanted to say thanks again. You guys rock!
Andre, 32
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FAQ

What makes Three Day Rule's personalized matchmaking different than other matchmaking companies?

When Talia, our CEO, founded Three Day Rule, her mission was to create a much more enjoyable, stress-free dating experience for both men and women. Here’s how we do it:

  • We are real people who meet you in person.
  • We find potential dates and ask them the hard questions, face to face.
  • We only introduce you to the most compatible matches.
  • You go on dates and give us feedback.

It’s dating, made simple.

We train every matchmaker in our Los Angeles headquarters to assure that our matchmakers are positive, empowering, and personalized in their approach to finding you a committed relationship.

How does TDR's personalized matchmaking service work?

You have two options: free and paid. In either option, the first step is to take our short quiz. This will take you less than five minutes. (You can add more depth as you go.) Completing the quiz puts you in our free database and lets our matchmakers search for you as a potential match for their clients. It also assigns you a personal matchmaker.

If you would like to explore the option of becoming a TDR paid client, you can request for your personal matchmaker to contact you, or you can go straight to scheduling an informal coffee meeting. Your matchmaker will meet with you to learn about your preferences and show you first-hand how we vet your matches. This initial meeting is free and no obligation.

What does TDR's personalized matchmaking service include?

Our packages including a certain number of vetted matches, personalized attention, and surprise perks from our partners.

Our most popular package is our 6-month personalized matchmaking package that includes:

  • An initial, in-depth session with your matchmaker to determine your preferences
  • 6-12 vetted introductions
  • Ongoing, personalized feedback sessions with your matchmaker after every date
  • Free access to TDR events
  • A complimentary photography session
  • A complimentary styling session with an expert fashion consultant
  • Additional date coaching from one of our dating experts

Our 3-month personalized matchmaking package includes:

  • An introductory meeting with your matchmaker
  • 3-6 vetted introductions
  • Ongoing, personalized feedback sessions with your matchmaker after every date
  • Free access to TDR events

We also offer a multi-city package tailored to those who believe their best match could be anywhere and are willing to make the effort to find out. We accept clients who live outside our current service areas who are willing to travel for vetted matches.

I saw Shark Tank – what’s up with the name?

Just call us TDR. TDR believes that antiquated notions like the “three day rule” don’t reflect the desires and realities of today’s singles. Dating should not be dictated by games or myths about when you should make the first move. Instead, Three Day Rule aspires to create a fun and delightful dating experience for our members.

Do you serve the LGBT community?

Not yet, but hopefully soon! Please take our quiz and we will keep you posted on our launch date in your city.

Do you work with singles above the age of 45?

Absolutely. Our pool tends to range in age from 25-65, however we are always on the lookout for quality singles of any age. Should you decide to work with one of our Matchmakers, they will go to great lengths to ensure that they find amazing matches that are within the specific age range you are looking for.

I have additional questions. Who can I talk to?

For answers to any other questions, please email support@threedayrule.com

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Management Team

Talia Goldstein

Chief Executive Officer

Talia is the CEO and founder of Three Day Rule. After studying communication at Tulane University, Talia worked as a TV producer at E! True Hollywood Story, where she quickly became the office dating expert, setting up many co-workers with matches and handing out insightful dating advice from her cubicle. Recognizing her hidden talent for matchmaking, Talia quit her full-time job and began hosting popular singles events and offering personalized matchmaking services. Three Day Rule was officially created in 2010, allowing Talia to turn her lifelong hobby of matchmaking into a thriving business. Leveraging her extensive network of successful, attractive singles, Talia has found matches for hundreds of clients, including top executives, entrepreneurs, and everyday young professionals. Among her clients, Talia has been recognized for her strong instinct for what drives lifelong connections between two people. She has made it her mission to help clients on their quest to find true love, and is thrilled that her work allows her to make a difference in people's lives.

Jill James

Chief Operating Officer

Jill is the COO of Three Day Rule. Prior to joining TDR, she was Vice President at Real Media Group, WPP's marketing technology company, managing the North America video ad network. WPP acquired Panache, a leader in digital video advertising fulfillment software, in December 2011, where James was Vice President, Marketing. Earlier, she was an account director with Razorfish's Los Angeles office, leading digital marketing strategy for Fortune 500 clients including Disney-ABC Television, Mattel, SOAPnet, and Disney Parks & Resorts. James has also contributed to go-to-market strategy and client management for venture-backed, successfully acquired start-ups, including Offermatica, Zimbra, and Afternic. James began her career in financial services in New York, including roles as project analyst to the CEO and Chairman of AXA Financial and analyst at JP Morgan. She earned a Bachelor of Arts with honors in Political Science and an MBA from the University of Chicago.

Andy Schmidt

Chief Technical Officer

Andy is the CTO and technical co-founder of Three Day Rule. Before joining with Talia to build TDR's online presence, Andy was the founder and CEO of Labcoat LLC. a digital agency specializing in developing web applications for startup and media companies, including Technicolor, Digital Domain, and Fox. Andy began his technical career at a boutique web development agency called Citrusbyte where he helped conceptualize, build, and launch, venture-funded startups. His extensive experience building online businesses from the ground up has given him a unique insight into the startup life-cycle, allowing him to provide leadership in product strategy, product marketing, and technical strategy. Andy is a graduate of the University of Arizona and holds a Masters of Arts in Screenwriting.

Kelli Stember

Director of Events

Kelli Stember is Three Day Rule's Director of Events. An LA native and Pepperdine University graduate, Kelli spent five years working for 20th Century Fox TV, where she was immersed in the high-caliber, red carpet events that define the entertainment industry. With a growing desire to bring people together through her own events, she then launched two of her own companies; Kelli Jane Events, a boutique event planning company with a focus on weddings, and In Pursuit Networking, an activity-based social networking club, primarily for singles. Kelli then managed the Los Angeles Rewards program for Thrillist Media Group, sourcing food, beverage, and lifestyle packages for exclusive events. Kelli is excited to continue her passion of bringing people together at TDR, and thrives on the many Three Day Rule success stories that come out of these events.

Tina Wie

Director of Expansion

Tina is the Director of Expansion at Three Day Rule. A graduate of UC Berkeley and Harvard Business School, she began her career as an analyst at Cornerstone Research, a leading economic and litigation consulting firm. Fueled by her desire to get closer to the consumer, Tina then transitioned into a career in brand management at Del Monte Foods, where she launched five new products and led the day-to-day management of the $300M canned fruit business. After business school, Tina continued her career in marketing at The Clorox Company. She then joined Russell Reynolds Associates, a premier provider of executive recruiting and assessment. As an executive recruiter, Tina worked on searches for senior-level marketing and ecommerce executives for clients such as Walmart.com, Amazon, and eBay. During this time, Tina discovered her passion for connecting people to opportunities. She is thrilled to be leading new market expansion for Three Day Rule, and feels truly fulfilled helping others find their love connections.

Robyn Swider

East Coast Regional Manager

With years of successful New York City dating experience under her belt, Robyn is excited to share her insights with her clients to help them find love. After graduating from the College of Charleston, Robyn moved to New York and began a career in sales and marketing for shoplet.com and Lifebroker. Among her friends, Robyn has always been known as the "connector." Over the years, Robyn's friends have credited her with helping them find roommates, job opportunities, and of course, romantic matches. As a matchmaker at Three Day Rule, Robyn is excited to combine her business experience with her ability to bring people together and make love connections.

Marly Steinman

West Coast Regional Manager

Born and raised in Orange County, Marly is a Southern California gal at heart. Throughout her life, Marly has always had a deep interest in psychology and a penchant for relating to and understanding people. Marly has a Masters in Clinical Psychology and interned as a Marriage & Family therapist. Her strong intuition combined with her real-world experience helping people successfully navigate their relationships allows her to understand the needs of her clients. She has had the opportunity to create many love connections through her network of established singles. Marly believes that love and companionship are the keys to happiness in life, and there is nothing that brings her more joy than helping others find their ideal match.

Katie Kaynor

Membership Coordinator

Katie is Three Day Rule's Membership Coordinator. A graduate of Oregon State University with a degree in Speech Communications, Katie hit the ground running when she moved to Los Angeles and began a career at Hulu. Not only has Katie's depth of experience at Hulu enabled her to provide valuable technical support to the TDR matchmaking team, but her background in PR, recruiting, and customer service and support make her a valuable asset to the team. With a sincere interest in others and true joie de vivre, Katie is a 'go to' professional for clients and matchmakers alike.